This article about Erdoğan came up in the last couple days. It talks about how Erdoğan thinks the government of Nazi Germany was an excellent example of what a presidential system could be, where the presidency is given sweeping powers. I didn’t think much of it because we all know Erdoğan has Islamist and authoritarian leanings. Also, the chance of Turkey’s government becoming as dictatorial as that of Nazi Germany seems remote, though it may drift more towards authoritarian.
A reader, though, thankfully commented on this story in connection with Erdoğan as the first horn on the goat. It got me thinking. It is the Second Signpost with Iran’s invasion of the Middle East that will trigger Turkey’s joining Egypt and Syria, and will trigger Turkey’s push to invade much of the Middle East including Iran proper. So why couldn’t it also trigger a major change in Turkey’s government with a major power grab by Erdoğan? After all, history is pockmarked with men in leadership positions, craving more power, and taking advantage of emergency situations. Hitler was one of them. Why not Erdoğan?
Though I didn’t really mention it in past posts or in my book, I had always assumed that the regime of Iran during the Second Signpost was going to be brutal. As written about in this post, it would be like Islamic State and the Revolution of 1979 all rolled up into one, all over the Middle East. And after all, it is symbolized as a bear running back and forth gorging on flesh.
And likewise, I had always assumed the regime of the Fourth Signpost, ruled by the man who will be the up and coming Antichrist to be like Islamic State on steroids. It is symbolized as the terrible fourth beast, trampling and crushing as pure Islam has always done.
But I assumed that the Sunni Confederacy might have a more benevolent government. In Daniel 8, the nation becomes “very great.” It might try to undo the damage done to the oil fields and get product out to the world. After all, how could it become “very great” without income from exports? Its population and economy would qualify it to be a G8 nation. Looking at the G8 nations, they seem to be a group of very civilized and perhaps “kinder” nations – the USA, Canada, Britain, France, Japan. But then there is China and its communist party government responsible for things like Tiananmen Square. So being a G8 nation does not qualify a nation to be “kinder” automatically.
No, with Erdoğan’s statement, I am afraid that the Sunni Confederacy will have some form of brutality on par with Iran in the Second Signpost and the Antichrist’s growing Empire in the Fourth Signpost. And why not? With the Sunni Confederacy’s predecessor and successor empires both being brutal, why would the Sunni Confederacy be any different? The Sunni Confederacy is also represented in Daniel 7 as a beast, and it will be Islamic so maybe it shouldn’t be a surprise.
What might we see? Might the Sunni Confederacy put people of other nations to work on the farms like slaves to stave off famine, or rounding up Jews, Christians and Shia Muslims in places like the United Arab Emirates where they are relatively safe now?
Lastly, we may yet hear ringing out over and over during the Third Signpost (assisted here with my lack of knowledge of Turkish), Selam Zafer, Selam Erdoğan! (Hail victory, Hail Erdoğan!)
Categories: Signpost #3: Four Nations
Yes, I saw Adamant’s link too. The physical resemblance between Erdogan and Hitler is striking as well. Thanks for posting this. I can easily see the Shia taking revenge over the Sunni for ISIS’s treatment of Shia Muslims during their reign. Then, of course, once the Sunni counter-punch, it will be their turn to slay the Shia. The Great Sunni-Shia war will certainly be a time of horror. Dan. 8 says the prominent horn becomes “exceedingly great.” It is a disturbing thought.
US warns Saudi execution of Shia cleric Nimr could fuel tensions
This incidence could trigger a major Shia-Sunni war.
As I wrote to Good4u1 in the “You Better Not Cry” post, this is indeed another instance that Iran can use to fuel its saber rattling. Just like it did with the stampede in Mecca last year.
In Revelation 2:13 and 13:1-18 it is explained the seat of Satan is in today’s Turkey, Pergamum of long ago and who the revived beast is. Erdogan is most likely the AC unless a more terrible tyrant comes along and takes his throne. He will bring the beast back to life when he re-establishes the Ottoman Empire, in the not too distant future. Erdogan’s favorite book when he was a little boy was Mein-kampf and he carried it everywhere he went. He admires Hitler greatly and will be more terrible and blood thirsty than Hitler.
I’ve heard some people say that Turkey will try to appear as though it has the most to offer the world, as far as bridging the gap between the brutality of radical Islam and the moderation/tolerance of western culture – that it will try to appear “moderate” to the world in its attempt to take over the middle east. Do you think this is true, or do you think its brutality will be evident to all?
I can tell you with fair certainty, Erdoğan is not the AC. All the leaders of each Signpost prior to the AC may seem like the AC. Please read the book.
Turkey has been presenting a “best face” for decades.
Mark, Could you please briefly explain some of your prophetic differences with Walid? I’ve read your book and read Nelson Walters site…sometimes I just have a difficult time sorting things out. Thank you!
My position is the Signpost interpretation. It is summarized on this page. It is a model or construct of God’s word providing consistent answers to what is going on in the Middle East both now and next. No other prophecy teacher supports the Signposts except for Nelson and Joel (and they do only partially). I teach the Four Signposts to occur prior to the Tribulation. That should be easy – 1-2-3-4. If you read my book you would know chapters 9-12 talk about the four signposts, one by one. The First Signpost happened – Iraq became a democracy (Nelson thinks the First Signpost does not exist). The Second Signpost is next – Iran’s invasion. It really is quite simple.
Other teachers like Walid will make things more complicated. Walid does not know the Signposts (nor does any other prophecy teacher except Nelson and Joel). Walid’s theories and interpretations of what is going on in the Middle East are erratic or wrong – he does not have a consistent model. One time he says Turkey and Iran are allies (which is bunk) and now says Erdogan is the AC (also bunk).
This is just me but I would not listen to Walid. I would get confused too if I listened to too many voices.
I hope this helps.
Thank you, Mark, I have purchased your book, I will go back and reread.
I especially agree, Shelli, with Mark’s next to last sentence in his post to you. After many years of studying prophecy, I have found that the Islamic Paradigm authors/teachers who are generally more conservative in their approach to the prophetic scriptures most consistent with each other and scripture…for the most part. They will have differences with each other, of course. Joel, Mark and Nelson differ on some aspects of prophetic scripture, but you have to decide with God’s guidance what you see as God’s truth for yourself.
We all need to be thinking prophecy students and challenge each other to be better in our scriptural prophetic understanding, not just parrot what one person says as the “final say”. As we wrestle together through prophetic scripture as “iron sharpens iron” as it states in Proverbs 27:17, all of us need to read these author’s works and the authors need to read their colleague’s works/books so that as we come together for the sake of being watchmen per Ezekiel, we have a more complete picture. We keep what is consistently scripturally accurate and dispose of those concepts that do not closely align with principles of scripture.
That way I have taken the best from Joel, Mark and Nelson and others Islamic paradigm supporters I have read to have a construct that is a work in progress. Therefore, when and if events happen, I will not be afraid but be able to share my faith in God’s prophetic word with assurance.
This works for me as a long-time prophecy student of God’s prophetic word.
Shelli and Good4u1,
To add to what Good4u1 wrote, yes, myself and Nelson and Joel have our differences, but in the overall prophetic community these differences are minor. All three of us I am fairly sure agree on the basics – Iran will likely invade the Middle East, kicking off two other major events, all prior to the Tribulation. These are the signs to watch.
All other prophetic voices out there clashing with this basic theory don’t have a systematic understanding of what God’s word is telling us. People like Walid are throwing in front of you explanation after explanation of what seems right at the moment. This is all not meant to sound arrogant or boastful – it is just working out this way. The signpost theory is based on a simple and straightforward reading of Daniel 8. And events are proving it.
Remember, prophecy is to provide comfort and encouragement to the saints (1 Cor 14:3). The signposts do just that. I have found comfort in this interpretation of prophecy and so have thousands of others. God has given us in these last days a script from His word, so we may watch the end times and know what the Lord is doing.
Mark and Good4u1, Thank you for your thoughtful reponse(s). I had been reading Walid’s site for years and was having a difficult time trying to fit his work into your Four Signposts. I do appreciate your consistent interpretation of Daniel 8. I had never thought about prophecy being a comfort to God’s people! Thank you both for your humility and encouragement! Lord bless!
But Joel and Walid did write a book together several years ago, ‘God’s War on Terror’. I assume since you mentioned you would not read Walid’s material, you also not recommend their book? Could you elaborate a bit more about Walid? Has Joel’s ideas changed that much from their book? Just curious, I don’t mean to cause any difficulties 🙂 I like Joel and Walid, as well as you and Nelson. I have read each of the a fore mentioned books by each of you.
I appreciate your cautious approach to a subject such as this. And I need to tread delicately too.
Yes, Joel and Walid co-wrote “God’s War on Terror”. For the most part that book’s content is fine, though it is a bit disorganized.
I credit Joel with being the discoverer of the Islamic Antichrist theory. He is the one who studied the topic and wrote Islamic Antichrist and Mideast Beast. No, Joel’s beliefs haven’t changed that much only because I know Joel (like me) to be a careful student of prophecy. And it was only in the last year or two he read my book and started agreeing with me on the Second Signpost as it stands in Daniel 8. It was his work on Islamic Antichrist that set my path straight so I could go on to discover the Signposts.
Years ago Walid was a solid contributor to the prophetic community. He was good at showing how much Islam is a fulfillment of prophetic scripture. In the last couple years some strange turns have occurred (I don’t want to elaborate more than that) such that he is now putting out strange articles, with no consistent model or basis for interpretation. His articles now get people alarmed to what I consider to be the wrong things and I consider him to have lost direction.
Note that I link to a very limited number of sites. Walid’s site is not one of them.
Thanks Mark. Your remarks are greatly appreciated. Some of us do not have the time to research as deep as people like you and Joel. And so us lay people have to be very discerning who we trust and not Follow someone popular. Joel and yourself are two I follow closely and search scriptures against what is said. Joel’s book, ‘Mideast Beast’ actually took my hatred away from Muslims since 9/11. I pray for them now and contribute money to Joel and organizations he believes in to help reach them for Christ. Thank you again Mark.
Shelli, I see my name and Joel’s mentioned and I want to reiterate Mark’s comments. I strongly agree with Mark regarding his interpretation of Dan. 8 as future and as the primary scripture which leads to the rise of the Antichrist. Having spoken with Joel and having read his material on this subject, I think all three of us are in fairly complete agreement on this. To have three prophecy teachers agree on something is quite miraculous actually! Mark is to be commended as the one who uncovered the future aspects and potential consequences of the coming Shia/Sunni War. Dan. 8 is the heart and soul of Mark’s teaching and I think Joel and I agree with him and thank him for his work in this area.
Where the three of us differ is in regard to the links of Dan. 8 with other passages in Rev. 6 (four horsemen), Matt. 24 (Olivet Discourse), and Dan. 7 (four beasts). Mark, of course, has written that he believes Dan. 8 is linked to all three of these other chapters; that parts of them are describing the same events. My best understanding of Joel’s position (from speaking with him and reading) is that he does not agree with Mark on these links. (although he may have changed his position.) I do not believe Dan. 8 is linked to Rev. 6 or Matt. 24. I am not sure about Dan. 7.
The sum total of these differences in regard to their impact on interpretation of Dan. 8 is small. Very small. If you look at my site I have a link to Mark’s webpage and to his book and had him guest author a blog on my site. Joel has written articles about Mark’s work as well. We should always focus on the positives and similarities IMO. Obviously I read Mark Davidson fairly regularily because here I am commenting!!!
Well said, Nelson.
The consequence/blessing of the three of us agreeing on the most impacting part of the signpost message is that when Iran invades the middle east, running out, there will be three paths of teaching in which the church will know about it and not be bewildered but know Christ is coming.